Interesting discussion and I would only add that the Scriptures are pretty clear on only men being both elders (which includes pastors) and deacons. As a ruling elder in a PCA church this is a strength to the church. Women are not excluded from many roles but men are called to step up in these roles.
God tells us that the reason is that Eve was deceived. Adam was not deceived, but consciously disobeyed. From what I have seen in other denominations when women are ordained in these positions, men slink back - willing abdicating the responsibility God has given them. Women follow Eve’s curse, seeking the role of the man. From there the denomination begins down the road of other apostasies to include homosexual marriage, etc. See the UMC, PUSA, Episcopal churches…
Erick, I'm LCMS and absolutely agree that women should not be Pastors. At least for some congregations, if not for this criteria, we'd have NO men leading in the church. We have women leaders, to be sure and some women are all but in name Elders. It works out. I believe that this is one of the reasons that ELCA & Seminex happened from '74 - '87. I believe the bible is the inerrant word of God. I have family members in ELCA. We just get along.
Re: New Orleans. Erick, if you like chargrilled oysters, then go to The Corner Oyster House on St. Peter Street, right next to Jackson Square. You'll thank ME later!
“I do not permit a woman…”. Not, “The Lord does not permit a woman…”. (Note other places where Paul says “Not I, but the Lord says” vs “Not the Lord, but I say”).
I have a similar view. Some pronouncements of Paul simply represent his view, departing as they do from the spirit of Christ's teachings.
One notable example is Corinthians 5:11, where Paul says, "[Y]ou must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people." This stands in stark contrast with Matthew 9:10 -17, Mark 2 :15-22, and Luke 5 :29-39, where Jesus rejects the criticism that he is eating with sinners, basically explaining that they are the ones for whom he came.
Paul was just a man, albeit a prominent leader of the early Church. Not everything that came out of his mouth represented the word of God, any more than do the pronouncements of subsequent or current church leaders.
It's so much easier being Catholic. The male priesthood is part of the "Deposit of Faith" and can never change. As in all churches, there are orthodox and heterodox members - but no one votes on such things. It's the will of God.
I was raised Southern Baptist. I always found it disappointing that women were not allowed behind the pulpit. A friend of my mother’s was a missionary to Brazil, in a primitive area where no men wanted to go. She was their pastor and spiritual leader.
When she came back to the U.S. to give a report to our church (her sponsor), she was not allowed behind the pulpit. She had to stand off to the side to speak to the congregation. Why would she be good enough to lead people to God in Brazil but not here?
Did not the angel appear to the women on Easter and tell them to tell his disciples if the resurrection?(Matthew 28:1-10, John 20:11-18, Mark 16:6, and Luke 24:4-12)? Is this not a command to tell others of Christ’s resurrection?
I’ll take the word of angels over the word of a man who would make women second class citizens .
Susan, God made women to support the life of the children that He makes in them. You as a women may be the one He choses to make a man that becomes a Pastor. Does that make me a second class person that I can not have a child like I may want? No, God made Adam first and then Eve. He makes all of us special in our own way. He does NOT MAKE SECOND CLASS PEOPLE. He Blesses us all with the Children He makes in the women that have a husband to start that little child.
Blessings to you Susan and your mother's friend for all the missionary work she has done in Brazil. I have spent time in the mission field with the Navajo Indians and other places and loved the time and experience.
My question is regarding the interpretation of the original New Testament documents written in ancient Greek. I assume that modern reformation religious thought is based on the King James Bible translation (from what I understand Luther's translation of the Bible came from Latin texts and not the original Hebrew/Greek). Could Paul's original letter to Timothy in Greek be interpreted, as a commentor posited in the previous post, that there was not a qualified woman at that church to lead it or does he advocate for no woman at any time should become a pastor?
That point aside, the SBC is an organization with specific guidelines- one of which is that there are to be no women pastors leading a congregation. If a congregation feels otherwise, they are welcome to disaffiliate from the SBC...
I’m Eastern Orthodox (I grew up in the PCUSA). Just some observations:
1. When we start talking about our “right” to be ordained, then it becomes about our ego and a demand for validation. The Christian life, especially in Eastern Orthodoxy, isn’t about stroking our egos. It’s about dying to our passions and being transformed. When someone says, “it’s my right,” then the question they need to answer is this: Is this about serving God or is this really a carnal desire for position with a veneer of service?
2. I was an AF officer for 10 years. Having a title and a position may put you in a leadership position, but it doesn’t imbue you with leadership qualities. If you’re out for yourself, your subordinates will know and and they won’t follow you to a bar for a free drink. There are examples of women in scripture who were leaders (i.e. Deborah). In the Orthodox tradition, there are female saints who are called Equal to the Apostles (St. Thekla). Scripture is full of Godly, intelligent women. They may not have had a title or a position, but they had the quality of a leader.
In the secular world, I’m grateful for the benefits of living in a culture where I have the right to have my own bank account, be in my chosen profession, and be afforded basic human rights that are lacking for women in other parts of the world. Western women are some of the most fortunate women that ever walked the Earth. But the Church isn’t of this world. We are supposed to be transformed by our faith, not demand that the Church conform to the current zeitgeist to satisfy a craving for validation or a sinful desire for position and prestige.
Anyone who has heartburn about the SBC (or any confessional church) not ordaining women is free to leave. It’s not a cult; they can walk out the doors anytime (I did with the PCUSA). To demand that a church change their doctrines to accommodate one’s political ideology or desire for validation is straight up narcissism.
Well stated. The way I end such discussions: "It is not a matter of competence, it is a matter of obedience". That, of course, requires agreement on what is to be obeyed beforehand, and that is often not the case.
In my own life, I point to four women teachers in the church that brought light and growth to my Christian walk beginning in 5th grade and continuing through High School. These women had tremendous knowledge and wisdom, they taught with passion and conviction. I was technically a "man" in High School during the final period under that tutelage; "woman leading a man" situation. Well, none of them were pastors, and one resisted being an elder in PCUSA for years for that very point. (Not sure what happened later in life, but she eventually did become an elder, though not a pastor).
To men in the church, God says "stand up and lead!" We men have become complacent, lazy, distracted, et al, willing to leave gaps in our congregations and families...and women are willing to fill those gaps. Women see a need and fill it. Created as nurturers, ambiguity is unacceptable, women step in when men step out. Men leave gaps and women fill them.
Men, stand up, fill those gaps! A woman may even be more competent than the man in a leadership role...but He called us men to lead. Give women a reason to nurture in their own realms rather than taking up our slack.
Pastor has become a word in May churches that don’t necessarily relate to “elder” it is the elder , according to Paul that should be a man. The deacons, in many churches have assumed the role of elder, and therefore many churches say women shouldn’t be deacons. However, the Bible say both Phoebe and Dorcas were deacons, using the same masculine form of the word, as the male deacons of the time. Perhaps if we allowed the deacons to be what the Bible describes as deacon, the issue would no longer exist. But then, something else would be found to complain about…
Maybe that's why some denominations use the title "Minister" rather than 'Pastor.'While no longer attending, I was .married in the Methodist church (dont get me started on the whole LGBTQ mess there. The dear, female friend who married my wife and I waa a humble, caring and devout seevant of the Lord and minister to her congregation.
Erick, thank you for both of these commentaries on this issue. I am a woman who studied for and received a professional degree in the early 1980s. A time when my profession was male dominated. My choice of field of study was not about women's rights, but was based on my aptitude for the profession. I am not a feminist. I also have been a women's Bible study teacher for a number of years. When reading the scriptures, I learned what God says in His Word about men as pastors. I support this wholeheartedly because it is in His Word. I understand that this part of scripture upsets people, but...if someone is bothered by something in God's word, I believe we need to seek God's counsel, His Holy Spirit, to teach us....not the counsel of man. I want to follow God and His best plan, even when it seems hard and goes against the culture. Blessings to you Erick
I no longer feel the need to add my comment to Erick's post. You said it very well. What I will add is that I try to anchor everything I believe to scripture. I'm willing to have the discussion with other Christians who disagree with me but my first question is, "Okay what scripture do you see that says I'm wrong?" When they don't have one I ask, "Okay, I believe God said INSERT SCRIPTURE PASSAGE HERE so why is it that I'm misinterpreting that?" If the disagree with my scripture AND don't have one of their own I ask them what they think the Bible is? If isn't authoritative to them I stop trying to convince them. Only the Holy Spirit can do that at that point. It has saved me tons of frustration and time. God bless and Godspeed. Well-said AJ.
Well written, sir. People can CHOOSE to disregard scripture, or to disagree with interpretations, but should own up to doing that, not pretend the scripture doesn’t say what it says.
I appreciate the breakdown, particularly the first-order, second-order stuff. I also wholeheartedly agree that the SBC has the right to enforce their bylaws. As with so many things in life, if you don't like it then go elsewhere, move elsewhere, work elsewhere, change the channel, stop supporting them with your dollars, etc. Just stop b*tching (I'm talking to you, Rick Warren). Cast your vote, say your piece, then make a decision as to whether you will stay - which means accepting the SBC's position on female pastors - or RESPECTFULLY withdraw Saddleback from the SBC. Waging a campaign such as this only further divides the Church (not YOUR church, the body of Christ). A more humble man would see this clearly, IMO.
No argument here from this PCA member, Erick. We could go on for weeks about Paul's writings, the "correct" translations of his Greek words, and the fact that Paul was born into a culture that treated women as little more than chattel ... and thus find ourselves mimicking the Schoolmen of the middle ages.
What I find revealing is how Rick Warren phrased his appeals. Pastor Warren uses the very language that Biden & Company use, when they defend the reprobate Alphabet People and their allies who support mutilating children in the pursuit of delusions: "warriors" and "fighters" shouting "PRIDE". Will someone please remind Rick of what Scripture says about pride ... or will the good pastor next be urging the SBC to accept homosexual pastors?
Interesting discussion and I would only add that the Scriptures are pretty clear on only men being both elders (which includes pastors) and deacons. As a ruling elder in a PCA church this is a strength to the church. Women are not excluded from many roles but men are called to step up in these roles.
God tells us that the reason is that Eve was deceived. Adam was not deceived, but consciously disobeyed. From what I have seen in other denominations when women are ordained in these positions, men slink back - willing abdicating the responsibility God has given them. Women follow Eve’s curse, seeking the role of the man. From there the denomination begins down the road of other apostasies to include homosexual marriage, etc. See the UMC, PUSA, Episcopal churches…
Erick, I'm LCMS and absolutely agree that women should not be Pastors. At least for some congregations, if not for this criteria, we'd have NO men leading in the church. We have women leaders, to be sure and some women are all but in name Elders. It works out. I believe that this is one of the reasons that ELCA & Seminex happened from '74 - '87. I believe the bible is the inerrant word of God. I have family members in ELCA. We just get along.
Re: New Orleans. Erick, if you like chargrilled oysters, then go to The Corner Oyster House on St. Peter Street, right next to Jackson Square. You'll thank ME later!
“I do not permit a woman…”. Not, “The Lord does not permit a woman…”. (Note other places where Paul says “Not I, but the Lord says” vs “Not the Lord, but I say”).
Therein lies the controversy.
I have a similar view. Some pronouncements of Paul simply represent his view, departing as they do from the spirit of Christ's teachings.
One notable example is Corinthians 5:11, where Paul says, "[Y]ou must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people." This stands in stark contrast with Matthew 9:10 -17, Mark 2 :15-22, and Luke 5 :29-39, where Jesus rejects the criticism that he is eating with sinners, basically explaining that they are the ones for whom he came.
Paul was just a man, albeit a prominent leader of the early Church. Not everything that came out of his mouth represented the word of God, any more than do the pronouncements of subsequent or current church leaders.
God had his reasons for putting men only leading worship. Lots of things done in scripture symbolizing things and I am sure that is happening here.
I’m incompetent about the religious questions but I can 2nd the recommendation of Guy’s Po Boys.
It's so much easier being Catholic. The male priesthood is part of the "Deposit of Faith" and can never change. As in all churches, there are orthodox and heterodox members - but no one votes on such things. It's the will of God.
I was raised Southern Baptist. I always found it disappointing that women were not allowed behind the pulpit. A friend of my mother’s was a missionary to Brazil, in a primitive area where no men wanted to go. She was their pastor and spiritual leader.
When she came back to the U.S. to give a report to our church (her sponsor), she was not allowed behind the pulpit. She had to stand off to the side to speak to the congregation. Why would she be good enough to lead people to God in Brazil but not here?
Did not the angel appear to the women on Easter and tell them to tell his disciples if the resurrection?(Matthew 28:1-10, John 20:11-18, Mark 16:6, and Luke 24:4-12)? Is this not a command to tell others of Christ’s resurrection?
I’ll take the word of angels over the word of a man who would make women second class citizens .
Susan, God made women to support the life of the children that He makes in them. You as a women may be the one He choses to make a man that becomes a Pastor. Does that make me a second class person that I can not have a child like I may want? No, God made Adam first and then Eve. He makes all of us special in our own way. He does NOT MAKE SECOND CLASS PEOPLE. He Blesses us all with the Children He makes in the women that have a husband to start that little child.
Blessings to you Susan and your mother's friend for all the missionary work she has done in Brazil. I have spent time in the mission field with the Navajo Indians and other places and loved the time and experience.
My question is regarding the interpretation of the original New Testament documents written in ancient Greek. I assume that modern reformation religious thought is based on the King James Bible translation (from what I understand Luther's translation of the Bible came from Latin texts and not the original Hebrew/Greek). Could Paul's original letter to Timothy in Greek be interpreted, as a commentor posited in the previous post, that there was not a qualified woman at that church to lead it or does he advocate for no woman at any time should become a pastor?
That point aside, the SBC is an organization with specific guidelines- one of which is that there are to be no women pastors leading a congregation. If a congregation feels otherwise, they are welcome to disaffiliate from the SBC...
I’m Eastern Orthodox (I grew up in the PCUSA). Just some observations:
1. When we start talking about our “right” to be ordained, then it becomes about our ego and a demand for validation. The Christian life, especially in Eastern Orthodoxy, isn’t about stroking our egos. It’s about dying to our passions and being transformed. When someone says, “it’s my right,” then the question they need to answer is this: Is this about serving God or is this really a carnal desire for position with a veneer of service?
2. I was an AF officer for 10 years. Having a title and a position may put you in a leadership position, but it doesn’t imbue you with leadership qualities. If you’re out for yourself, your subordinates will know and and they won’t follow you to a bar for a free drink. There are examples of women in scripture who were leaders (i.e. Deborah). In the Orthodox tradition, there are female saints who are called Equal to the Apostles (St. Thekla). Scripture is full of Godly, intelligent women. They may not have had a title or a position, but they had the quality of a leader.
In the secular world, I’m grateful for the benefits of living in a culture where I have the right to have my own bank account, be in my chosen profession, and be afforded basic human rights that are lacking for women in other parts of the world. Western women are some of the most fortunate women that ever walked the Earth. But the Church isn’t of this world. We are supposed to be transformed by our faith, not demand that the Church conform to the current zeitgeist to satisfy a craving for validation or a sinful desire for position and prestige.
Anyone who has heartburn about the SBC (or any confessional church) not ordaining women is free to leave. It’s not a cult; they can walk out the doors anytime (I did with the PCUSA). To demand that a church change their doctrines to accommodate one’s political ideology or desire for validation is straight up narcissism.
I agree so well said!
Well stated. The way I end such discussions: "It is not a matter of competence, it is a matter of obedience". That, of course, requires agreement on what is to be obeyed beforehand, and that is often not the case.
In my own life, I point to four women teachers in the church that brought light and growth to my Christian walk beginning in 5th grade and continuing through High School. These women had tremendous knowledge and wisdom, they taught with passion and conviction. I was technically a "man" in High School during the final period under that tutelage; "woman leading a man" situation. Well, none of them were pastors, and one resisted being an elder in PCUSA for years for that very point. (Not sure what happened later in life, but she eventually did become an elder, though not a pastor).
To men in the church, God says "stand up and lead!" We men have become complacent, lazy, distracted, et al, willing to leave gaps in our congregations and families...and women are willing to fill those gaps. Women see a need and fill it. Created as nurturers, ambiguity is unacceptable, women step in when men step out. Men leave gaps and women fill them.
Men, stand up, fill those gaps! A woman may even be more competent than the man in a leadership role...but He called us men to lead. Give women a reason to nurture in their own realms rather than taking up our slack.
Great thoughts here
Well said!
Pastor has become a word in May churches that don’t necessarily relate to “elder” it is the elder , according to Paul that should be a man. The deacons, in many churches have assumed the role of elder, and therefore many churches say women shouldn’t be deacons. However, the Bible say both Phoebe and Dorcas were deacons, using the same masculine form of the word, as the male deacons of the time. Perhaps if we allowed the deacons to be what the Bible describes as deacon, the issue would no longer exist. But then, something else would be found to complain about…
Maybe that's why some denominations use the title "Minister" rather than 'Pastor.'While no longer attending, I was .married in the Methodist church (dont get me started on the whole LGBTQ mess there. The dear, female friend who married my wife and I waa a humble, caring and devout seevant of the Lord and minister to her congregation.
Erick, thank you for both of these commentaries on this issue. I am a woman who studied for and received a professional degree in the early 1980s. A time when my profession was male dominated. My choice of field of study was not about women's rights, but was based on my aptitude for the profession. I am not a feminist. I also have been a women's Bible study teacher for a number of years. When reading the scriptures, I learned what God says in His Word about men as pastors. I support this wholeheartedly because it is in His Word. I understand that this part of scripture upsets people, but...if someone is bothered by something in God's word, I believe we need to seek God's counsel, His Holy Spirit, to teach us....not the counsel of man. I want to follow God and His best plan, even when it seems hard and goes against the culture. Blessings to you Erick
You have the best really Bible proved comment of any other here. We have to listen to what God tells us, not another earthly person.
Blessings to you and your family
I no longer feel the need to add my comment to Erick's post. You said it very well. What I will add is that I try to anchor everything I believe to scripture. I'm willing to have the discussion with other Christians who disagree with me but my first question is, "Okay what scripture do you see that says I'm wrong?" When they don't have one I ask, "Okay, I believe God said INSERT SCRIPTURE PASSAGE HERE so why is it that I'm misinterpreting that?" If the disagree with my scripture AND don't have one of their own I ask them what they think the Bible is? If isn't authoritative to them I stop trying to convince them. Only the Holy Spirit can do that at that point. It has saved me tons of frustration and time. God bless and Godspeed. Well-said AJ.
Well written, sir. People can CHOOSE to disregard scripture, or to disagree with interpretations, but should own up to doing that, not pretend the scripture doesn’t say what it says.
I appreciate the breakdown, particularly the first-order, second-order stuff. I also wholeheartedly agree that the SBC has the right to enforce their bylaws. As with so many things in life, if you don't like it then go elsewhere, move elsewhere, work elsewhere, change the channel, stop supporting them with your dollars, etc. Just stop b*tching (I'm talking to you, Rick Warren). Cast your vote, say your piece, then make a decision as to whether you will stay - which means accepting the SBC's position on female pastors - or RESPECTFULLY withdraw Saddleback from the SBC. Waging a campaign such as this only further divides the Church (not YOUR church, the body of Christ). A more humble man would see this clearly, IMO.
No argument here from this PCA member, Erick. We could go on for weeks about Paul's writings, the "correct" translations of his Greek words, and the fact that Paul was born into a culture that treated women as little more than chattel ... and thus find ourselves mimicking the Schoolmen of the middle ages.
What I find revealing is how Rick Warren phrased his appeals. Pastor Warren uses the very language that Biden & Company use, when they defend the reprobate Alphabet People and their allies who support mutilating children in the pursuit of delusions: "warriors" and "fighters" shouting "PRIDE". Will someone please remind Rick of what Scripture says about pride ... or will the good pastor next be urging the SBC to accept homosexual pastors?