@dmk....you once again demonstrate that you do not understand scripture regarding who gets to be in authority. No matter the circumstances, whomever wins elections (fraud or not) or is appointed into authority by whatever means ......that person is in that position of authority because God places them in that position. Simple as that. …
@dmk....you once again demonstrate that you do not understand scripture regarding who gets to be in authority. No matter the circumstances, whomever wins elections (fraud or not) or is appointed into authority by whatever means ......that person is in that position of authority because God places them in that position. Simple as that. As disastrous as it is going to be (IMO) to have Biden/Harris as POTUS, it is a fact that God placed them there. The challenge for us Christians is to try to understand why God wants them in these positions at this point in time. Romans 13:1
So Trump is currently the anointed person of God as the duly elected President of the United States and he has the God given authority until January 20 to make the decisions a President is legally entitled to make. Is that the point you wish to make?
The election is not legally settled as I pointed out. Neither the media, nor you, nor Erick, nor anybody but an Electoral College vote selects the President Elect of the United States. Until that happens we have no President Elect appointed by God. That is straightforward Constitutional law and not an issue of Scripture, except for your Romans 13:1 argument that Constitutional laws are made by political leaders appointed by God, which I do not deny.
These points of mine remain unchallenged:
1) In regard to the extent of 2020 election fraud, it is a dangerous presumption to claim accurate knowledge of events that one does not witness. That is why Deuteronomy 19:15-21 requires at least 2 or 3 witnesses. Anonymous witnesses and/or second-hand opinions are not Biblically just because the testimony of actual eyewitnesses was to be thoroughly investigated by judges and if a malicious witness was found to have lied, they were to be severely punished because false allegations are evil. Many people on both sides of the 2020 election debate are making broad judgments about the extent of election fraud events for which they were not witnesses. People are entitled to form preliminary opinions based on the evidence they have seen reported, but only judges who "thoroughly investigate" charges of actual witnesses are Biblically-based authorities entitled to rule on the validity of witnesses testimony.
2. I am not arguing that God doesn't appoint leaders (Romans 13:1). I am arguing that one cannot know what leaders God appoints until they are in fact in office (whether by legal or illegal means). Biden is not yet legally appointed as President Elect and it is only a presumption that God's will is going to bring that to pass. It may (or may not) be a valid presumption, but it is still a presumption. Certainly the presumption of many people that Hillary would become President in 2016 has been proven false. God's will is not determined by human presumptions. Apart from actual Biblical statements we are not to make presumptions about future events (James 4:13-15).
3. I am arguing that just because God appointed a leader it doesn't mean that the leader will act in accordance with the "good, pleasing and perfect will of God - Romans 12:2" For example, the nation of Israel and its rulers are repeatedly declared by God's infallible word to have done "evil in the eyes of the Lord." It was God's will to let this evil transpire and I am not disputing that. Nor am I disputing that despite any evil, God works out all things together for good (Romans 8:28). However, my claim is that Americans have a responsibility to God to elect leaders who will implement Godly policies. In addition, my claim is that Biden/Harris will not do that regarding abortion in addtion to supporting other anti-Biblical policies. Therefore, my claim is that the American voters who helped elect Biden have voted for anti-Biblical political policies, which is evil on the part of these voters. That is not an anti-Biblical position for me to take.
The person who is making the allegations are Trump and his team. They are the ones with the duty to prove this with evidence. Until they do we have the right to be sceptical and your Scripture backs us up
If you listen to their press conference.Trump's attorneys have unambiguously stated that they intend to prove their allegations in court, Jonathan Turley has indicated that his attorneys (and possible Trump himself) have opened themselves up to a possible defamation suit by Dominion Systems ( see https://jonathanturley.org/ ), which would force Trump's attorneys to offer proof for the allegations or face severe consequences (such as with Lin Wood's lawsuits for media organizations that had defamed his client Nicholas Sandman). My advice is that you wait until evidence is presented at court before making a judgment.
I agree with you that the election is not settled. My point is that whenever it gets settled and whomever is POTUS 46 .....God is the author who placed them in the office of authority.
I agree with you on both points: 1. Election is not settled. 2. God is sovereign in all things. The question with point 2 is whether God in his sovereignty chooses to honor human choices, even catastrophic and evil ones, because no amount of human evill will ever thwart God's ultimate plan. Two OT related verses:
Deuteronomy 30:19 (NIV): "This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live."
Joshua 24:15 (NIV): "But if serving the Lord seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living."
This passage from Jonah suggests that human responses can alter God's actions, in regard to the Ninevites repentance:
Jonah 3:10: "When God saw what they did and how they turned from their evil ways, he relented and did not bring on them the destruction he had threatened."
One doesn't have to deny God's sovereignty to accept that human free will plays a part in our daily lives, and that events in this world are as much determined by people resisting the will of God as by people obeying it:
Acts 7:51: “You stiff-necked people! Your hearts and ears are still uncircumcised. You are just like your ancestors: You always resist the Holy Spirit!"
The sad truth is that God's condemnation of the Nation Israel is applicable to a large section of humanity and America is not excluded:
Romans 10:21 quoting Isaiah 65:1 “All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and obstinate people.”
So while the will of God is to let evil reign its course until the time of the harvest (Matthew 13:24-30), this doesn't mean that all governments are equal in striving to pursue the "good, pleasing, and perfect will of God - Romans 12:2). My point is that just because God permits a ruler to obtain power by his sovereign authority, it doesn't mean that God approves of what the ruler will do. That statement is true for Trump, for Biden, and for any human ruler ever. The only perfect ruler is Jesus. But there are rulers that are relatively good and relatively evil in terms of their political policies and actions. So while God's sovereign will may be to appoint Biden as President in 2020, this doesn't mean that it wasn't a foolish choice by the Americans who voted for him, and God would not have allowed Americans to make a better choice, as Deuteronomy 30:19 and Joshua 24:15 both imply in general terms.
@dmk....you once again demonstrate that you do not understand scripture regarding who gets to be in authority. No matter the circumstances, whomever wins elections (fraud or not) or is appointed into authority by whatever means ......that person is in that position of authority because God places them in that position. Simple as that. As disastrous as it is going to be (IMO) to have Biden/Harris as POTUS, it is a fact that God placed them there. The challenge for us Christians is to try to understand why God wants them in these positions at this point in time. Romans 13:1
So Trump is currently the anointed person of God as the duly elected President of the United States and he has the God given authority until January 20 to make the decisions a President is legally entitled to make. Is that the point you wish to make?
The election is not legally settled as I pointed out. Neither the media, nor you, nor Erick, nor anybody but an Electoral College vote selects the President Elect of the United States. Until that happens we have no President Elect appointed by God. That is straightforward Constitutional law and not an issue of Scripture, except for your Romans 13:1 argument that Constitutional laws are made by political leaders appointed by God, which I do not deny.
These points of mine remain unchallenged:
1) In regard to the extent of 2020 election fraud, it is a dangerous presumption to claim accurate knowledge of events that one does not witness. That is why Deuteronomy 19:15-21 requires at least 2 or 3 witnesses. Anonymous witnesses and/or second-hand opinions are not Biblically just because the testimony of actual eyewitnesses was to be thoroughly investigated by judges and if a malicious witness was found to have lied, they were to be severely punished because false allegations are evil. Many people on both sides of the 2020 election debate are making broad judgments about the extent of election fraud events for which they were not witnesses. People are entitled to form preliminary opinions based on the evidence they have seen reported, but only judges who "thoroughly investigate" charges of actual witnesses are Biblically-based authorities entitled to rule on the validity of witnesses testimony.
2. I am not arguing that God doesn't appoint leaders (Romans 13:1). I am arguing that one cannot know what leaders God appoints until they are in fact in office (whether by legal or illegal means). Biden is not yet legally appointed as President Elect and it is only a presumption that God's will is going to bring that to pass. It may (or may not) be a valid presumption, but it is still a presumption. Certainly the presumption of many people that Hillary would become President in 2016 has been proven false. God's will is not determined by human presumptions. Apart from actual Biblical statements we are not to make presumptions about future events (James 4:13-15).
3. I am arguing that just because God appointed a leader it doesn't mean that the leader will act in accordance with the "good, pleasing and perfect will of God - Romans 12:2" For example, the nation of Israel and its rulers are repeatedly declared by God's infallible word to have done "evil in the eyes of the Lord." It was God's will to let this evil transpire and I am not disputing that. Nor am I disputing that despite any evil, God works out all things together for good (Romans 8:28). However, my claim is that Americans have a responsibility to God to elect leaders who will implement Godly policies. In addition, my claim is that Biden/Harris will not do that regarding abortion in addtion to supporting other anti-Biblical policies. Therefore, my claim is that the American voters who helped elect Biden have voted for anti-Biblical political policies, which is evil on the part of these voters. That is not an anti-Biblical position for me to take.
The person who is making the allegations are Trump and his team. They are the ones with the duty to prove this with evidence. Until they do we have the right to be sceptical and your Scripture backs us up
If you listen to their press conference.Trump's attorneys have unambiguously stated that they intend to prove their allegations in court, Jonathan Turley has indicated that his attorneys (and possible Trump himself) have opened themselves up to a possible defamation suit by Dominion Systems ( see https://jonathanturley.org/ ), which would force Trump's attorneys to offer proof for the allegations or face severe consequences (such as with Lin Wood's lawsuits for media organizations that had defamed his client Nicholas Sandman). My advice is that you wait until evidence is presented at court before making a judgment.
I agree with you that the election is not settled. My point is that whenever it gets settled and whomever is POTUS 46 .....God is the author who placed them in the office of authority.
I agree with you on both points: 1. Election is not settled. 2. God is sovereign in all things. The question with point 2 is whether God in his sovereignty chooses to honor human choices, even catastrophic and evil ones, because no amount of human evill will ever thwart God's ultimate plan. Two OT related verses:
Deuteronomy 30:19 (NIV): "This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live."
Joshua 24:15 (NIV): "But if serving the Lord seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living."
This passage from Jonah suggests that human responses can alter God's actions, in regard to the Ninevites repentance:
Jonah 3:10: "When God saw what they did and how they turned from their evil ways, he relented and did not bring on them the destruction he had threatened."
One doesn't have to deny God's sovereignty to accept that human free will plays a part in our daily lives, and that events in this world are as much determined by people resisting the will of God as by people obeying it:
Acts 7:51: “You stiff-necked people! Your hearts and ears are still uncircumcised. You are just like your ancestors: You always resist the Holy Spirit!"
The sad truth is that God's condemnation of the Nation Israel is applicable to a large section of humanity and America is not excluded:
Romans 10:21 quoting Isaiah 65:1 “All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and obstinate people.”
So while the will of God is to let evil reign its course until the time of the harvest (Matthew 13:24-30), this doesn't mean that all governments are equal in striving to pursue the "good, pleasing, and perfect will of God - Romans 12:2). My point is that just because God permits a ruler to obtain power by his sovereign authority, it doesn't mean that God approves of what the ruler will do. That statement is true for Trump, for Biden, and for any human ruler ever. The only perfect ruler is Jesus. But there are rulers that are relatively good and relatively evil in terms of their political policies and actions. So while God's sovereign will may be to appoint Biden as President in 2020, this doesn't mean that it wasn't a foolish choice by the Americans who voted for him, and God would not have allowed Americans to make a better choice, as Deuteronomy 30:19 and Joshua 24:15 both imply in general terms.