38You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye and tooth for tooth.’ 39But I tell you not to resist an evil person. If someone slaps you on your right cheek,turn to him the other also; 40if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well.
I see that you and I were on the same page of the lectionary (Luke 6:27-38). That was the passage I was given for my Bible study yesterday. When I was considering it, the amateur historian in me came up with three things from American history which to me illustrate Christ's point.
The first and second are based on Lincoln's Second Inaugural Address, specifically one paragraph:
“With malice toward none with charity for all with firmness in the right as God gives us to see the right let us strive on to finish the work we are in to bind up the nation's wounds, to care for him who shall have borne the battle and for his widow and his orphan ~ to do all which may achieve and cherish a just and lasting peace among ourselves and with all nations."
Had his vision of post-Civil War America been followed, perhaps we would not even now be dealing with much of the detritus of that conflict. However, Lincoln was assassinated, and the mood changed from forgiveness to revenge. And the result of Reconstruction without Lincoln's vision was.... the Klan, and all which went with it.
The third happened 54 years later. In 1919, the victors of what people hoped would be "The War To End All Wars" assembled in Versailles, France to determine the nature of the peace. President Woodrow Wilson was there, advocating much the same spirit of reconciliation to a defeated Germany Lincoln had advocated toward the Confederacy. Wilson even used Lincoln's words - "Let 'em up easy" - in doing so. He, however, found that Britain, and in particular France were unwilling to follow Christ's advice from Luke, and instead sought the old ways of revenge and retribution. The result was sadly predictable: Germans were angered and looked for some way out. Eventually, the "stab in the back" theory to explain Germany's defeat became accepted by far too many Germans, and various groups sprang up advocating the Germany take action to end "the shame of Versailles". 20 years later, a racist madman advocating just that plunged the world into a war which claimed the lives of some 70 million souls.
We do a really pathetic job at being Christlike, Erick, and I can't help but fear that eventually that will be the cause of our permanent undoing as a species. We still have the right to legitimate self-defense in the face of aggression, but we too often fail to see that perhaps our actions inspired the anger and desire for revenge which leads to the aggression. Christ didn't advocate we become doormats, but He did call upon us to be far more forgiving and understanding that we seem to be capable of being. Seeing everything in the terms of a zero-sum game only leads to zero progress, and the continuation of the attitudes leading to conflict. Yes, evildoers must be brought to account for their actions. What we too often do is to leap to the conclusion that everyone in the evildoer's group is similarly evil. Every American southerner was responsible for slavery, nor was every German living in 1914 responsible for WWI. Jesus was telling us that group rights, group guilt, or any other attempt to treat members of a group as all equally responsible for anything, for good or for ill, reflects the values of man, not those of God.
Perhaps we'll learn these truths someday, and perhaps we won't. I am convinced that the price we'll pay for failing to do so is far higher than we could ever imagine.
The problem with this is that the Old Testament DOES call for retribution. It gives specific penalties for specific crimes. That Jesus gave this sermon (on the Mount) has always puzzled me. In any event, not standing up against evil is permitting evil. When the first statues came down, in violation of the law, and nothing happened to the vandals, that sent the message that it was okay, and could be done with impunity. If those vandals had been arrested and jailed and/or fined, as prescribed by law, it might not have continued into the vandalism of other monuments. If the first rioters had been dealt with, there would have been less rioting. Not enforcing laws leads to lawlessness, and I would doubt that is what Jesus had in mind.
Christ also told us to "render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's." Yes, we should better enforce the laws of man when they ate violated. But Christ rejected the values of the Old Testament and the values of Empire calling for retribution in all cases and offered a radical vision of seeking reconciliation without retribution. What He sought was simply a more peaceful society which placed the values of God first, last, and always. I suspect that it's high time for us to accept His policy recommendation.
I have a thought every time I pray the Lord's Prayer." For give our debts as we forgive our debtors," I really hate what is being done to this country by people who are using scorched earth
policies against the citizens. I know that we are to pray for our President and other folks in our federal and local government. It is really hard to find grace for those who continually use there positions for personal gain with out regard for the people who elect them. I know this is like swallowing poison hoping someone else will die. Who could not know what Joe Biden is. It's been in the open and has been for years. When did elections become a beauty contest or a popularity contest. I have begun to think that Americans are very shallow and dishonest. The Republic can not survive this. Dan
I see no sin in thinking there should be retaliation. The sin is committing a retaliatory act Remember, only 1/3 of the colonist were in favor of the American Revolution. Is America the culmination of a massive sin?
Retaliation as an individual is very different. People say only 1/3 of the colonists supported it,but it was the governments of the colonies and their designated representatives that advanced the revolution. There was a governmental role.
I'm not an ordained minister or a biblical scholar but I have read the bible a few times and I seem to remember something about a kid named David son of Jesse who picked up five smooth stones, killed Goliath, cut his freaking head off and took his head and his armor to Jerusalem to show it off. We need more David's right now.
I seldom, disagree with you. However I do have a question regarding interpretation of what you were saying in regard to turning the cheek to the “go fund me” hackers and Canadian Gov.
Am I to assume that everyone involved in the American revolution was a sinner because they refused to turn their cheek to the atrocities committed by George III?
Or we should not have fought the Germans in WW II?
True, Erick, but not all governmental responses are valid or moral. The response of the American colonial governments to an increasingly oppressive British Crown had validity, as did the world's opposition to German National Socialism, Italian Fascism, and Japanese militarism. Similarly, a strong opposition to Soviet Communism was certainly appropriate, I believe that the response of the Trudeau government in Canada to what is in the end a legitimate, nonviolent protest of government policy is far in excess of what could be considered reasonable and moral. What was certainly NOT appropriate was the advocacy of the American left in the summer of 2020 when legitimate protest following George Floyd's murder devolved into what can only be accurately described as rioting verging on (yes, I'll say it) insurrection.
That sounds like nit picking to me. I fail to see how a nation, which is made up of individuals, can do something that is wrong for individuals to do. And if a nation WON'T do anything to combat evil (remember how many mayors and governors did nothing about the vandalism and riots) then who will protect the individual?
It is easy to say to God that vengeance is his, but he has a busy schedule. This is a minor issue so let me take care of it. A slippery slope.
The Canadians need a new tactic. The Flash Mob. Fill an intersection, store, stadium with enough people to stop movement and pull out flags and sing the National Anthem. Wait a few seconds and yell “Let’s Go Trudeau” and everyone disappears.
Jesus was obviously using hyperbole in describing how radical it is to be a Christian. I don't believe he is saying to lie down in the face of evil and let it overtake you. The reporters and hackers responsible should be called out for their malicious behavior and be held to account and/or brought to justice.
I take a slightly different tack but get to a similar place. People often forget that the Mosaic Law was an *improvement* on what went before, or was still being practiced, which is often lionized today as the 'Chicago Way' (they put one of us in the hospital, we put one of them in the morgue). This would have been obvious context to those hearing Jesus's words. Much like the admonition that lusting after someone other than your partner is equivalent to the physical act of adultery, expecting that God will provide a comeuppance for evil done to you isn't any better than physically carrying out the act yourself. The motivation is the same. What happens to your physical body is unimportant relative to keeping your mind right. And I agree that this isn't talking about self-defense or resistance to evil being done.
I needed to hear this message today. I have been so very angry about how Trudeau has been treating the truckers and protestors, and I have been falling into the same sin of wanting vengeance.
I see that you and I were on the same page of the lectionary (Luke 6:27-38). That was the passage I was given for my Bible study yesterday. When I was considering it, the amateur historian in me came up with three things from American history which to me illustrate Christ's point.
The first and second are based on Lincoln's Second Inaugural Address, specifically one paragraph:
“With malice toward none with charity for all with firmness in the right as God gives us to see the right let us strive on to finish the work we are in to bind up the nation's wounds, to care for him who shall have borne the battle and for his widow and his orphan ~ to do all which may achieve and cherish a just and lasting peace among ourselves and with all nations."
Had his vision of post-Civil War America been followed, perhaps we would not even now be dealing with much of the detritus of that conflict. However, Lincoln was assassinated, and the mood changed from forgiveness to revenge. And the result of Reconstruction without Lincoln's vision was.... the Klan, and all which went with it.
The third happened 54 years later. In 1919, the victors of what people hoped would be "The War To End All Wars" assembled in Versailles, France to determine the nature of the peace. President Woodrow Wilson was there, advocating much the same spirit of reconciliation to a defeated Germany Lincoln had advocated toward the Confederacy. Wilson even used Lincoln's words - "Let 'em up easy" - in doing so. He, however, found that Britain, and in particular France were unwilling to follow Christ's advice from Luke, and instead sought the old ways of revenge and retribution. The result was sadly predictable: Germans were angered and looked for some way out. Eventually, the "stab in the back" theory to explain Germany's defeat became accepted by far too many Germans, and various groups sprang up advocating the Germany take action to end "the shame of Versailles". 20 years later, a racist madman advocating just that plunged the world into a war which claimed the lives of some 70 million souls.
We do a really pathetic job at being Christlike, Erick, and I can't help but fear that eventually that will be the cause of our permanent undoing as a species. We still have the right to legitimate self-defense in the face of aggression, but we too often fail to see that perhaps our actions inspired the anger and desire for revenge which leads to the aggression. Christ didn't advocate we become doormats, but He did call upon us to be far more forgiving and understanding that we seem to be capable of being. Seeing everything in the terms of a zero-sum game only leads to zero progress, and the continuation of the attitudes leading to conflict. Yes, evildoers must be brought to account for their actions. What we too often do is to leap to the conclusion that everyone in the evildoer's group is similarly evil. Every American southerner was responsible for slavery, nor was every German living in 1914 responsible for WWI. Jesus was telling us that group rights, group guilt, or any other attempt to treat members of a group as all equally responsible for anything, for good or for ill, reflects the values of man, not those of God.
Perhaps we'll learn these truths someday, and perhaps we won't. I am convinced that the price we'll pay for failing to do so is far higher than we could ever imagine.
The problem with this is that the Old Testament DOES call for retribution. It gives specific penalties for specific crimes. That Jesus gave this sermon (on the Mount) has always puzzled me. In any event, not standing up against evil is permitting evil. When the first statues came down, in violation of the law, and nothing happened to the vandals, that sent the message that it was okay, and could be done with impunity. If those vandals had been arrested and jailed and/or fined, as prescribed by law, it might not have continued into the vandalism of other monuments. If the first rioters had been dealt with, there would have been less rioting. Not enforcing laws leads to lawlessness, and I would doubt that is what Jesus had in mind.
Jesus was not an anarchist.
"We the people..." is a recognition of the individual, not a collective statement, it is recognition of the value of the Republic.
Christ also told us to "render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's." Yes, we should better enforce the laws of man when they ate violated. But Christ rejected the values of the Old Testament and the values of Empire calling for retribution in all cases and offered a radical vision of seeking reconciliation without retribution. What He sought was simply a more peaceful society which placed the values of God first, last, and always. I suspect that it's high time for us to accept His policy recommendation.
I have a thought every time I pray the Lord's Prayer." For give our debts as we forgive our debtors," I really hate what is being done to this country by people who are using scorched earth
policies against the citizens. I know that we are to pray for our President and other folks in our federal and local government. It is really hard to find grace for those who continually use there positions for personal gain with out regard for the people who elect them. I know this is like swallowing poison hoping someone else will die. Who could not know what Joe Biden is. It's been in the open and has been for years. When did elections become a beauty contest or a popularity contest. I have begun to think that Americans are very shallow and dishonest. The Republic can not survive this. Dan
I think a paraphrase is, the only way to win is to no not play, as individuals.
"Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and unto God the things that are God's".
Remember the movie "War Games"? At the end, the message is that the only way to "win" the game is in fact not to play.
I see no sin in thinking there should be retaliation. The sin is committing a retaliatory act Remember, only 1/3 of the colonist were in favor of the American Revolution. Is America the culmination of a massive sin?
Retaliation as an individual is very different. People say only 1/3 of the colonists supported it,but it was the governments of the colonies and their designated representatives that advanced the revolution. There was a governmental role.
Thank you. I think I like the Sunday Sermons the best. It makes one think. Praise the Lord.
I'm not an ordained minister or a biblical scholar but I have read the bible a few times and I seem to remember something about a kid named David son of Jesse who picked up five smooth stones, killed Goliath, cut his freaking head off and took his head and his armor to Jerusalem to show it off. We need more David's right now.
I seldom, disagree with you. However I do have a question regarding interpretation of what you were saying in regard to turning the cheek to the “go fund me” hackers and Canadian Gov.
Am I to assume that everyone involved in the American revolution was a sinner because they refused to turn their cheek to the atrocities committed by George III?
Or we should not have fought the Germans in WW II?
Please explain.
It’s a difference between individual response and a nation’s response. Nations can respond.
True, Erick, but not all governmental responses are valid or moral. The response of the American colonial governments to an increasingly oppressive British Crown had validity, as did the world's opposition to German National Socialism, Italian Fascism, and Japanese militarism. Similarly, a strong opposition to Soviet Communism was certainly appropriate, I believe that the response of the Trudeau government in Canada to what is in the end a legitimate, nonviolent protest of government policy is far in excess of what could be considered reasonable and moral. What was certainly NOT appropriate was the advocacy of the American left in the summer of 2020 when legitimate protest following George Floyd's murder devolved into what can only be accurately described as rioting verging on (yes, I'll say it) insurrection.
That sounds like nit picking to me. I fail to see how a nation, which is made up of individuals, can do something that is wrong for individuals to do. And if a nation WON'T do anything to combat evil (remember how many mayors and governors did nothing about the vandalism and riots) then who will protect the individual?
It is easy to say to God that vengeance is his, but he has a busy schedule. This is a minor issue so let me take care of it. A slippery slope.
The Canadians need a new tactic. The Flash Mob. Fill an intersection, store, stadium with enough people to stop movement and pull out flags and sing the National Anthem. Wait a few seconds and yell “Let’s Go Trudeau” and everyone disappears.
Defending yourself and your beliefs isn’t vengeance. I’m attacked by the leftists every day. We all are really:
https://jeffcuttler.substack.com/p/letters-from-leftists?utm_source=url
Jesus was obviously using hyperbole in describing how radical it is to be a Christian. I don't believe he is saying to lie down in the face of evil and let it overtake you. The reporters and hackers responsible should be called out for their malicious behavior and be held to account and/or brought to justice.
I take a slightly different tack but get to a similar place. People often forget that the Mosaic Law was an *improvement* on what went before, or was still being practiced, which is often lionized today as the 'Chicago Way' (they put one of us in the hospital, we put one of them in the morgue). This would have been obvious context to those hearing Jesus's words. Much like the admonition that lusting after someone other than your partner is equivalent to the physical act of adultery, expecting that God will provide a comeuppance for evil done to you isn't any better than physically carrying out the act yourself. The motivation is the same. What happens to your physical body is unimportant relative to keeping your mind right. And I agree that this isn't talking about self-defense or resistance to evil being done.
I needed to hear this message today. I have been so very angry about how Trudeau has been treating the truckers and protestors, and I have been falling into the same sin of wanting vengeance.
Trudeau will be yesterday's news within the year, just like Andrew Cuomo.
Hard but helpful truth from the Bible. God's way is the only way out of the mess we are in.